but i don't think we need to do it that way, karen. whether -- we can't do a big deal before december 31st, so let's go -- if we have to go over the cliff, go over the cliff, but then in the next two weeks or so or three weeks, let's put together a real deal, and a real deal means everybody doesn't like it. and that means that we democrats are going to have some things in there that we don't like. too much -- big cuts in social spending, real entitlement reform we may agree with. and the president has already put that on the table, some things that the democratic base is kicking their heels up about. but we've got to do that if we're going to get $1.2 trillion or $1.2 trillion in revenue. >> but, guys, here is the question i have and governor, i'm going to start with, the question i have when i hear that is -- again, i get the politics, but what's to say we go over the cliff, what he is to say that we'll be able to get the republicans back to the table, the president will be able to get the republicans back to the table and get a deal